IMRA's Aaron Lerner interviewed Herut MK Michael Kleiner on 22 October in Hebrew.
IMRA: What do you think Israel should do now?
Kleiner: In light of the Arab violations of the Oslo Agreements I think that the only strategic action left for us to do is to enter Area A [land Israel turned over to the Palestine Authority] and return the situation to what it was before Oslo.
If we do not quickly seize control of Area A in Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip we will find ourselves standing behind UN forces that will prevent us from responding to attacks and the creation of a Palestinian state with an army under the protection of the UN.
Now keep in mind that when Oslo's opponents warned of the dangers of Oslo, the Oslo promoters, among them Yossi Beilin, said "What is the problem? The moment the Palestinians do the first thing, shoot the first bullet, the IDF can easily go in and take over the area. Piece of cake."
Piece of cake? No. And it certainly will cost us internationally. Did Beilin and the others lie to us or were they really that stupid? Nonetheless, our answer to the use of arms against us by the Palestinians should be the declaration of an area wide curfew with the warning that anyone on the street may be shot. We then carry out a house by house search for weapons and suspects. If fire originates from a house the house is destroyed. Illegal weapons are confiscated and terrorists are arrested.
The experience is that when a curfew is imposed backed with threats, that the curfew is followed. And people who violate the curfew are arrested. They do not have to be shot. Just as in war when a city is taken.
We would announce that once order is established and all those who gave orders to kill civilians were arrested and the weapons that are illegal under Oslo are confiscated, that we will begin negotiations with the local leadership for the establishment of an autonomy.
IMRA: What happens to the 40,000 or more members of the security forces?
Kleiner: Those who came into the area under Oslo should be expelled. Arafat should return to Tunis. Rabin always declared that if Oslo failed that it was reversible. Today no one in the country believes the Palestinians honored Oslo. They violated it all the time and as we failed to react to these violations the violations only got worse. They were supposed to create a police force and instead built an army. They do not honor their obligations for security and cooperation. And since they violated the agreement and did not honor it the agreement is void.
IMRA: Who would provide social-welfare services?
Kleiner: The municipalities under a military governor just as we did until 1993. And we would announce that we are prepared to immediately enter into negotiations with the local leadership over local autonomy so that they can control their own lives. We are talking about self rule with elections. We do not want to run their lives.
There would, however, be no incitement in the schools and police weapons would be limited to the equipment we can reasonably expect to be needed by a normal police force: pistols. They would not have anti-aircraft missiles or heavy machine guns.
IMRA: So you see an armed Palestinian police in an autonomy?
Kleiner: Yes. An armed police force to maintain order. But with a reasonable amount of weapons subject to supervision that is agreed upon. With the transfer of Palestinian murderers of Israelis to Israel.
IMRA: How long do you see this taking?
Kleiner: Very little time. I see declaring the end of Oslo and curfew and going into the cities and searching for illegal weapons and terrorists.
This has to be an immediate action. We see that our international position is deteriorating in any case. A month ago the world loved us after we were so nice at Camp David and now we see that it is falling apart. The UN passes resolutions full of lies against us and the Human Rights Commission in Geneva passes decisions that are full of lies against us and the Arab League is being pushed to an escalating series of decisions against us that will only get worse as we continue to get stoned and respond.
So instead of letting the situation deteriorate further I say that we take decisive action now even if there will be a sharp reaction to it. The Europeans know what is really happening here. They may complain and propose very sharp declarations that the US will veto and we will have reestablished our deterrent strength.
IMRA: You do not expect a situation in which UN forces come knocking on our gates.
Kleiner: The opposite is the case. If we continue to drag this out with the television screens full of pictures of violence in the streets with Palestinian dead and wounded then we may ultimately find ourselves facing UN or other international forces. If we act now we may face a sharp rebuke but not international intervention. Our overriding
(Continued on p.12)
Outpost - 6 - November 2000